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Re: Am working on G3612 with ESS panel that am unable to star...

Dear Hunt,

 

I have sent you an E-mail from my official mail address. I hope you have got the mail. I will like to use this as a channel for technical support just as you ve done on the forum. I still hope to ve your phone line for easier conversation. Once again, nice meeting you... Shodiya Kayode.

AlH
Contributor

Re: Am working on G3612 with ESS panel that am unable to star...

Kayode,

Here are some more comments for you to consider. 

 

Take a look at the topic "Engine will crank but will not start" in the TS manual on page 3-7.  If you haven't looked at this topic, please review it to see if you have checked each item in the list here.

 

The item about the RUN relay in the SCM not opening to the ECM would be particularly applicable.

 

Best Regards,

Al Hunt

AlH
Contributor

Re: Am working on G3612 with ESS panel that am unable to star...

Kayode,

Has any work been done on the ignition system?  Like has the magneto been removed and reinstalled?  If it has, then the engine must be started with the DDT in the MAG CAL mode.  Otherwise the magneto will put out the primary ignition signal but it won't match what the ECM is seeing for correct timing to fire the spark plugs at the correct time.  So you will see ignition power but it is not correct timing. 

 

This is discussed in the TS manual on 1-8.  This is discussing this MAG CAL for the CIS but it is the same requirement if you still have a real magneto on the engine.  I don't know which you  have.

 

Best Regards,

Al Hunt

AlH
Contributor

Re: Am working on G3612 with ESS panel that am unable to star...

Kayode,

I am out of town this week, teaching a G3500b class.  I have been trying to furnish some answers from my motel.

 

To answer your quesion, the SHUT DN message is normal when the engine shuts down.  If you have a copy of SENR6510-05, the G3600 ESS Troubleshooting Manual, some text about this message is found on page 1-4 of this manual.

 

I wonder if there is an input to the SCM either on terminals 13 or 15.  A connection to batt neg to either one of these terminals would cause the SCM to communicate the SHUT DN signla to the ECM.  Normally the SHUT DN message will go away when the engine is started, as indicate in the TS manual text.

 

Be careful about how much air pressure you apply to the starters.  250 psi sound like it may be a bit too much.  Most of the air starters are usually working with about 150-160 psi air pressure.

 

I don't know that I can give you a good time to talk on the phone until sometime next week; my schedule is quite hectic right now.  I will certainly work with you still using this email or you can use my other email; hunt_al@cat.com.

 

Best Regards,

Al Hunt

Visitor

Re: Am working on G3612 with ESS panel that am unable to star...

i really appreciate your prompt response towards my mail. I forgot to include the need valve adjustment on my previous mail. I gave it 4 turns and it still not start. i tried 2 turns as well still not start. Truly, am just working on G3600 with the ESS panel for the first time. On the ECM, there is a display where it shows the BTU value, PC CAL, fault code and SHUT DN. I will like to know also, is the SHUT DN display on the ECM normal?

 

Also on the cranking speed, i just worked on 3616 diesel with the same air line diameter and it crank the engine to start (i mean the diesel engine). Above all the customer said, the gen-set was working with the line where they purchase it. The cranking pressure was 30bar from the air tank and i use  250psi to the pneumatic motors.

 

Finally, i wont mind talking to you on phone verbally for troubleshooting guide if you can send me your number or mail address.. I work for CAT dealer here in Nigeria. My name is Kayode.

 

AlH
Contributor

Re: Am working on G3612 with ESS panel that am unable to star...

It sounds like you are on the right track and don't lack too much to get the engine running.  I would emphasize that the cranking speed is too low from my experience.  The engine must be at least 80 rpm and you should do what you can to have the cranking speed at 100 rpm.  This is important and may be the main item that prevents the engine from starting.

 

It sounds like the fuel controls are working correctly if that is the pressure you are seeing on the DDT.  Have you closed the needle valves down like I suggested?  It maybe that the prechamber is getting too much fuel and is overly rich to fire off.  I would work on this, maybe even closing the needle valves down to 2 to see if you can lean the prechamber fuel out.

 

I would also try several different trim positions for the choke.  It may be that the main chamber is also not the correct air/fuel ratio.  Try raising the choke trim up to as high as 25 and then if that doesn't work, begin taking it down, even goin negative to as far as -15.  You may have to try several different settings to see what the engine likes with regard to the air/fuel ratio.

 

If you get the cranking speed up and find the right positions for the choke trim and the needle valve, I think the engine will probable start.  Then after you get it running and are able to load it, you can tune it in PC CAL and get it adjusted where it should be.  Right now you are just going to have to try several things to get the engine running.

 

Best Regards,

Al Hunt

Visitor

Re: Am working on G3612 with ESS panel that am unable to star...

Thanks a bunch for your reply.

 

To start with, The engine is a generator.. G3612 serial number 1YG00033. The gen-set is in Nigeria. It is a fairly used purchased gen-set.

The engine uses DDT. It is stated on the SIS that the starting gas pressure should be between 1-5kpa which i can view from the DDT while cranking.

I ve done the Air / Fuel ratio callibration according to the SIS.

The check valves are new ones and the spark plugs as well

I ve carry out compression test on the engine and all cylinder pressures are with spec.

The cranking speed is above 50RPM as stated by SIS and i can see the SYNC and FIRING on the TCM logic display module

I ve incorporate a jacket water heater on the gen-set that heat it up to about 54 deg Celsius.

The other G3600 running at the customer site uses ADEM 4 (BKE00653) and i use their BTU value on the gen-set which is 960.

While cranking, the gen-set tends to pick and drop again and again.. the RPM get to 90 and 100 atimes. One will observe the sound when never am cranking and the speed as well.

 

Please i await your response on this.. thanks

 

AlH
Contributor

Re: Am working on G3612 with ESS panel that am unable to star...

[ Edited ]

Well, Kayuxee,

This could take a lot of time because I don't know where you are.  I assume that this is a gas compressor package.  I need the serial number of the engine.  But without that now, I can give you some items to check/set.  Do you have a DDT or Cat ET?  You will one or the other in order to input data to the engine ECM.  You will also need one of these to make adjustments after you  get the engine running.

1.  Make sure that all of the interconnect from the engine jbox to the compressor panel is connected correctly.

2.  You need a recent engine fuel analysis so that you can calculate the LHV btu and SG of the fuel.  The LHV values is what you will set the fuel value to using the fuel pot on the Cat panel.

3.  You need to be sure that the fuel supply to the engine is clean and at the correct pressure for the engine fuel regulator.  The regulator is probably a Fisher 99; there are two types.  One is for 65 psi fuel supply pressure; the other is for 150 psi fuel supply pressure.  If that is correct, adjust the Fisher 99 output pressure to 45 psi.

4.  Make sure that the air/gas supply to the engine starters is clean and has the correct pressure for the type of starter; about 100 psi for a turbine starter and about 160 psi for a vane starter.  The target engine cranking speed is 100 rpm.  It must crank at least 80 rpm.

5.  Before you try to start the engine, make sure the prechamber check valves are in good condition.

6.  Set all of the needle valves to four on the spool.  This is a good place to start; you will have to make some more adjustments after you get the engine running.

7.  The spark plug gap should be set at 0.011" and tightened to 50 ft. lbs.

8.  Set the choke trim to about 16-18 to start.  You may have to make other adjustments to the choke to get it where it should be.

9. At this point, you should be ready to try to start the engine.  If the engine won't hit, then try turning all of the needle valves in one full turn; the air/fuel ratio may be too rich to ignite.  You can retry a start and see how the engine reacts.  You may have to turn the needle valves in another full turn and maybe even a third full turn, to lean out the engine for starting.  It has been not running for a long time so it will be some trial and error at this point.

 

These are the things that I would do right now, not knowing anything about the engine.  How much do you know about the G3600?  Good luck.

 

Best Regards,

Al Hunt

 

 

Visitor

Am working on G3612 with ESS panel that am unable to star...

Am working on G3612 with ESS panel that am unable to start. The gas engine uses CIS. I ve did so many things and still fail to start.. Can someone help me here. I ve bern on this engine for more than seven months.. someone should help me out.. the spark plugs re producing spark.. please help in anyway to start it..
AlH
Contributor

Re: G3600 ECM Control Strategies?

These problems with the G3600 with the ESS control has historically been almost always related to the wiring system.  There are many wires and terminals which are susceptible to the engine vibration.  When the integrity of the continuity of the control wiring fails, the ECM cannot control the engine as desired.  That is one of the best benefits of converting to the ADEM 3 control system; reliability. 

 

Another improvement of the A3 control strategy is the additional air/fuel ratio control at the low load operating mode.  Cat calls this the "Exhaust Temperature Feedback Mode" and operates when the engine is operating at less than 40% load.  The ECM uses the choke to control the air/fuel ratio control in this mode.

 

The most important thing for the G3600 to achieve reliable performance is to have the engine correctly setup; the PC CAL procedure must be performed correctly and the engine must be in good mechanical condition.  The inlet, exhaust, and most importantly, the gas admission valve lash adjustments must be correctly adjusted.  The combustion feedback system must be is good condition.  The engine cannot be correctly tuned if there is excessive misfire; this MUST be fixed first before attempting to tune the engine.  Service Manual RENR5908-11 and later issues have the correct tuning procedure listed in the section "BTU and Precombustion Chamber Adjustments".  If you follow this procedure on a good mechanical condition, the engine should perform as well as it can.

 

If the G3600 ESS operates at less than 50% most of the time, the ECM cannot maintain the correct air/fuel ratio as the choke is controlled to a fixed position; there is no feedback.  Under these operating conditions, I recommend that the G3600 ESS be converted to the A3 control system for better air/fuel ratio control under 40% load.  The air/fuel ratio will be better controlled because the ECM is using the exhaust temperature as feedback to dynamically the choke to control air/fuel ratio.  You will have to tweak the A3 system for the best results when operating continuously below 40% load.

 

If you have an engine with misfire, and are running under a high load, this misfire can cause the other cylinders to experience detonation.  When this happens, the indicated load also goes up as the engine momentarily does use more fuel to compensate for the cylinder misfire (loss of horsepower) when it occurs.

 

I hope this helps understand some of these problems with the ESS control system.  I have seen G3600 ESS availability achieve 98+% availability but it usually takes a lot of time, keeping the wiring harness in the best integrity (no shorts or loose connections).  The A3 control systems easily achieves 98+% run time because the integrity of the A3 wiring harnesses is at a much higher level than the ESS wiring harnesses.

 

Best Regards,

Al Hunt