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Cat Dealer
Dealer

Re: Tier 4 genset availability

If the port is in California the crane will have to be electric powered or the emissions from the genset(s) will have to have PM emissions < 0.015 g/hp-hr and NOX emissions <0.15 g/hp-hr (except in LA, Long Beach or San Diego <0.07 g/hp-hr The owner will also have to purchase Nox offsets).  Also, Houston, TX follows CA emissions limits. 
Regular Contributor
Employee

Re: Tier 4 genset availability

wlj1943,

 

My first recommendation to you is to contact a US based equipment dealer.  I cannot speak for any of Caterpillar's competitors, but I do know that US based dealers will often work with our international dealers for projects that are constructed abroad.  Here is the link to locate a Caterpillar dealer: http://www.cat.com/dealer-locator.  Make sure the local US Caterpillar dealer knows where the bids are going, and they can work with the Caterpillar dealers in the country where the quotations are being developed.  This should help to ensure that the proper equipment is specified and quoted.

 

There are also a number of additional items to consider:

1.  Know where the final cranes are going to be installed. Think of the EPA Tier requirements as a starting point for emissions.  Ultimately, site emissions will be regulated by the local air boards, which may drive your project to require an SCR system to further lower emissions below the EPA levels.  This is common in non-attainment zones, and areas like California and the North East US, where some form of aftertreatment is installed on most projects.

 

2. There is typically a 2 year period after a Tier level comes into effect until the unit must be "installed"... but, the EPA does not currently have a good definition of installed.  See related post for some more information on installed:  

https://caterpillar.lithium.com/caterpillar/board/message?board.id=Regulations&message.id=18&jump=tr...

 

3.  You mentioned that there are additional cranes... which could be up to a year apart.  Based on the timing, these units will probably require Tier 4 generator sets.  You may want to consider specifying an SCR system on this first round of cranes, since your client is looking for all units to be the same.  This will do a couple of things for you.  The first is that local emissions permitting will be easier, since the SCR system will reduce the emissions.  The second is that your client will become familiar with the SCR technology with the first crane, and will maintain some level of commonality between the first unit and subsequent units... but, be aware that a manufacture supplied Tier 4 genset will not be 100% identical to a Tier 2 generator set and aftertreatment. 

 

4.  Right now, I am unaware of any generator set manufacturer that has a Tier 4 certified generator set available in the power range you are looking for.  From a Caterpillar standpoint, Tier 4 generator sets are being developed, but may or may not be available for this first project, depending on when the generator set will be ordered.  Again, your local Caterpillar dealer can help with the specifics of product availability. 

 

Hope this helps. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chad Dozier
--------------------
Product & Application Consultant
Caterpillar Inc.
Regular Contributor

Re: Tier 4 genset availability

One of the biggest issue is how Tier 4 will impact stationary power generation. As mentioned before diesel engines built on or after the Jan '11 date and apparently above 175 HP  will require Nox after treatment. I have frim quotes for equipment from several manufacturers that show a 100.00usd per Kw in capitol cost and a 1.25 usd  perMWh in O&M cost. Both Cat and Wartsila are even specing SCR on SG ICE units........Although when pushed indicate the unit will run under Tier 4 Nox limits. Another very concerning aspect of Tier 4 is the paragraph that states if any repair or modifcation exceeds 50%of replacement cost the repaired unit must meet the new requirement....

Cat Dealer
Dealer

Re: Tier 4 genset availability

This is a very interesting issue it wil be great to hear back form you and cats solution to this question.

 

 

thanks

 

jim

Contributor
Employee

Re: Tier 4 genset availability

Contributor

Re: Tier 4 genset availability

Aswinssr,

Tier 2 and tier 4 relate to diesel engine emission standards established by the US EPA, specifically for my interest those adopted in June of 2004. Standards are to be phased in over a time period, becoming more demanding with time. There is also related rules on phasing in low sulphur diesel fuel, and separate rules for on-highway vehicles.

 

 There are different levels of attainment required for all non-road diesel engines, with more stringent standards required for larger generator sets than for smaller units.  The bible sized document on the regulations is at http://www.epa.gov/nonroad-diesel/2004fr.htm#preamble. Cat has an excellent technical summary paper on this available at the power generation portion of the website (I no longer have the link-ask your local dealer or surf).  Note these standards likely differ from the EU requirements.

WLJ1943

wlj1943
New member

Re: Tier 4 genset availability

I am fresher and joined the industry before 6 months. May i have a basic question  whats the difference between the tier 2 and tier 4 DG Engines? Could you explain me in layman language??
Contributor

Re: Tier 4 genset availability

Thank you Au342 and doziece;

 

Perhaps I was not completely clear. The crane will likely be put in to service ( IE title will transfer only upon final acceptance)  not sooner in late 2011; and it is probable that title will not transfer until later; our experience with many other jobs indicates it more likely to be in  be 2012 mid year.  Title transfer is a key in this business, because that is usually when the crane is deemed to be complete and accepted by the owner and only then will the tenants be permitted to put it in to commercial service.  I have not a clue how the Feds define " in service".  Since there is more than one crane involved and they will be built and delivered possibly many months to a year or more apart; we have a concern on this issue as the client wants all equipment on this order to be identical.

 

I am not privy to all of the procurement terms from this public entity, and that is one reason I made the posting as we cannot identify a date certain for many months into the procurement; and we want to avoid change orders on this issue. Since the date the crane will become property of the Port and then legally will be "in service" is additionally uncertain, we do think the prudent position to specify tier 4; either interim or final; ultimately that issue must be determined by the contractor and the genset supplier.

 

I am pleased for your inputs, because the EPA was of no help on this issue, and because this issue (other than for Southern California Ports)appears uncertain to us.

 

That said discussioins with the clients will continue. 

 

Thanks for the inputs all;

 wlj1943 

wlj1943
Contributor

Re: Tier 4 genset availability

As a Cummins employee, I can tell you the HP you are talking about is currently tier 2 and will remain as such through 2010. (>751hp) In 2011, you will be required to meet tier 4 interim, in 2014, tier 4 final. If this project delivers prior to 2011, you should be fine with current products. To make sure your competitors comply with Federal regulations, I highly suggest you educate your customer to watch for these specific items. If your client is currently specifying tier 4 for this HP, they are in error and you should advise them accordingly.
Regular Contributor
Employee

Re: Tier 4 genset availability

wlj1943,

I am a Product & Application Consultant with Caterpillar.  You pose an interesting question, and I will need to do some research on this and get back to you. 

 

 

Chad Dozier
--------------------
Product & Application Consultant
Caterpillar Inc.